Entertaining the Light - Episode 1
Whitney Ann Jenkins: Okay. Here we are, the first episode of Entertaining the Light.
Amanda Beck: Here we are.
Whitney Ann: This video podcasting is a little different for me, because I'm used to hiding behind the microphone on my other one. So, this is bringing up all kinds of fears and anxieties, and many things that come with performing.
Amanda: Absolutely. It feels like a performance, which it's not. It's an authentic conversation. But that's the struggle. Imposter syndrome is there for sure. But hey, I've watched so many interviews with Viola Davis, and she talks about impostor syndrome, and feeling like she doesn't know what she's doing, going to set. So, I'm like, look... if Viola Davis doesn't know what she's doing then... I sure as hell don’t have a chance!
Whitney Ann: Right, exactly!
So, this podcast has been a long time coming. Amanda and I have been talking about these subjects for over a year now, every week.
Amanda: Every week, multiple times a week. It obviously was something important if we made that commitment.
Whitney Ann: Right! Yeah. So, we thought that this would be the best way to share things that we've learned, and the topics that we keep coming back to that seems to have a wealth of material and interest for us. And if it's interesting to us, then it must have interest to some other people out there.
Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. You said to me before we started this, “Remember why we're doing this,” and I think that that's just something that was, and is, really on both of our hearts...which is bringing a conversation about mental health in the creative and entertainment industries, and we are coming from a psychological perspective. But I think maybe we can talk a little bit about Humanistic Psychology and how it's a bit of a different approach.
Whitney Ann: Right. Humanistic Psychology is looking at a person from a holistic viewpoint, and not looking at symptoms or specific behaviors. But looking at how a person is able to live to their most fulfilling life.
Amanda: Yeah.
Whitney Ann: And I'm sure you've heard of Abraham Maslow, and hierarchy of needs, and that goes along with Humanistic Psychology. But we're looking at taking those concepts and applying them to artists and creatives and performers specifically, because there's this concept and paradigm that's romanticizing the starving artist, which I know that I've experienced in my life pursuing my paths that I have.
Amanda: Yes, me as well. And I think being multi-passionate and wanting to study psychology and doing writing and studying nutrition, I feel a little bit all over the place, but I think that I've felt really wrong in that. I felt that I don't deserve to be an artist in that way. I moved to Los Angeles, and I felt like, okay... but I obviously still don't want it bad enough, because I'm not living in the cheapest place I could find, and working as a waitress and living with four other people, and that was a real thing for me where I'm just like... I don't deserve this, or I don't feel right about this.
Whitney Ann: The idea of having to sacrifice in order to pursue your passions. Or also, on the other spectrum of that, be super famous.
Amanda: In order to have value around your work.
Whitney Ann: Yeah, and that's something that we've been talking about a lot, too, is the value of artists in society in the first place. I feel like it's something that isn't really discussed very much, and an artist is such an important part of storytelling. And storytelling is a way that we understand humanity. It's how we interpret; it's how we make sense of being in this world in the first place.
Amanda: Right and I remember reading an article about poetry, and how there are things that you can learn through poetry about the human experience that science can't even describe. You know? I don't think it's valued. I don't think it's thought about how much... like if you were to take away the art, what would be the point? How would we cope with and understand being human?
Whitney Ann: Right, and I think there's another thing that we talked about that we leave out of the conversation a lot when it comes to psychology, and that is beauty, and applying beauty to the human experience and what that really means in fulfilling self-actualization.
Amanda: Yep, absolutely. I don't know where I first read that, but I know that that was brought to my attention when I was reading The Soul’s Code by James Hillman and he was talking about that, how there's such an absence of beauty in psychology. And it's like, to make everything clinical, you take away the part of what it means to be fully human. And he says… life, it's a quite a beautiful thing. So, I think in terms of art, we need to talk about artists and how they're important. And also, I mean, I've heard artists say this, I've certainly felt this way myself, like, ‘Oh, I'm not doing anything important. I'm not like a doctor or anything,’ and it's just an entirely different thing. We don't need to compare those things. You know?
Whitney Ann: Yeah. And looking at creativity specifically in our specialization within psychology and what we're studying and finding gaps in the research specifically related to psychology and performers in particular, because there is a lot of research about the arts, but much of it is having to do with expressive arts, and how you can take an art form, and use it to heal or help you get through a certain situation, or expand your mind in a different way that you hadn't thought of before. But artists and performers and creatives in particular really go through very specific things in their own lives that aren't really looked into that are very unique to the profession, and that is how I came to wanting to study psychology and the performing arts in the first place. Even when I was a kid, I would act out scenes in my backyard, and really dig into trying to understand the human psyche and the emotions, and why characters reacted the way that they did, and how that applied to my life and my experiences. And then I went on to performing in the community theater and amateur onto academic acting, and then into the professional world. And I really was able to observe situations that I went through and think about them and how they applied to my life and everyone else’s in a reflective way of...this is not a thing that normal people go through, and it's not really looked at.
Amanda: Yeah, for sure. It actually was pretty fascinating to me that there was such a gap in the research on mental health... I was looking at actors specifically. But yeah, there definitely was not that much, which is fascinating to me. And you've told me that that's why you were drawn to this program because there hasn't been a fuse of psychology and acting. Which I remember when I was first looking, I mean years ago, when I was thinking about like... I want to get my Masters, I want to get it in psychology, but it'd be really cool if, you know, because I'm an actor, and I want to be able to also apply what I'm learning in psychology to acting. And there just wasn't anything. And I never would have known that this was it. So I think being guided here, and then realizing oh, this is where I can fuse those things. But yeah, I don't know, it's fascinating to me…Like acting is...you're being a human. So it's like... that's your thing is you're embodying a human experience. And then there's not research about what that does to you as a human, as an actor…
Whitney Ann: Yeah. So one of the last plays that I did, I had an experience where the character that I was playing tries to commit suicide. And I found myself after rehearsal one night going back to my dark house. It was empty. I was all alone and sitting on my stairs and just being in a really, really dark place, and kind of being frightened by that, and not knowing what to do. So I had to call the producer of that show, and she talked me down thankfully. But it was in that moment that I was like...There's a real need for exploration of these things, and I need to explore that. And I need to be the one to learn more about myself and these situations so that I can help other people.
Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the thing is, I've had a lot of experiences thankfully that have been very positive and cathartic. I've had so many great mentors and teachers who have guided me along the path. Last semester when we were studying ethics, that really is when it crossed my mind... it was very powerful. I mean even acting teachers...anybody can kind of become an acting teacher without having to have any sort of credentials. Which is fascinating and it needs attention, I think, because in acting a lot of times we're using very, very deep personal, painful things, or we're asked to go to very dark places. And again, I've seen this work, and I've experienced it to be cathartic, but that's not always the case.
Whitney Ann: Right. Yeah, there's a very deep sense of vulnerability when you really get into it, that if it brings up a trauma that you've experienced, it can be very challenging to overcome. Especially if the person who is holding that space isn't trained into how to handle or deal with the trauma that arises.
Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. It's something that I've thought a lot about, as far as… we're taught a lot about how to get into character, but we're not taught so much about how to get out of it, and how to separate from it.
Whitney Ann: Absolutely. In all of my years of my acting experiences and performing, I was never ever taught how to separate those two things. And it can be quite confusing and get a little muddled sometimes, especially when we talk about showmances. And I would love to get into, probably have a whole episode about that topic in itself. Because I think it's a very common experience that actors and performers, even musicians and dancers and people in the circus, everybody experiences, that I think is something that is not taken seriously, because it's usually something that people make light of whenever they're talking about it. But there is a real need for discussion because it does lead to really real consequences.
Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. So I think we will definitely be talking a lot about boundaries. And I think, too, when we have gotten into talking about boundaries… I've seen this permeate my whole life. I mean, there's so many different senses of that word, as far as… boundaries within other people, cast and crew, and boundaries within...How do I separate myself from the character? And then how do I keep myself healthy within this industry?
Whitney Ann: Yeah, and I feel like there are things that are being implemented into the arts as far as helping people when they're on set, such as intimacy directors and coordinators now being introduced. However, I think the real question is, how do we, as individuals, create that feeling of safety within ourselves? Because there's so many variable elements within the industry that things are ever changing, and to fully put that on to someone else to be able to hold the safe space is probably not of the best interest.
Amanda: Right, because we want to be able to take it with us wherever we go. I think it's kind of like how I've had some really incredible acting teachers, and I've sat there with them, and I'm just taken to whatever place I need to be taken for the character. And then I would really struggle to do that when I wasn't sitting there with them. So I think, in a similar way, it's kind of like... that needs to be a part of the training. I know that that's been an obstacle for me as far as even putting myself in positions for opportunities, because I have such a fear, and not feeling safe within even knowing what the boundaries are.
Whitney Ann: Right, and there is not really much taught about that in my experience, anyway. Even like in a conservatory, academic kind of environment, because the industry is so tough that they have to break you down to build you up so that you'll be able to survive rather than giving you the tools to help you be the most fulfilled person, not just artist, in your life.
Amanda: Yeah. And actually, I'm glad you brought that up, because it made me really think that it's very paradoxical and counterintuitive. Because I think as an artist, we're taught to be soft and vulnerable and authentic, and that's what being an artist is all about. But then, when you talk to anybody about the business side of it, which... I've dedicated a lot of time in studying my craft, but the business side of it feels very, very difficult for me and inauthentic. I wrote down ‘thick skin,’ because that's what I keep hearing is, ‘you gotta have a thick skin in this business’, and ‘you just keep getting rejected’, and it's like, is there not a better way to approach all of that so we're not like super vulnerable and exposed in our work, and then completely shut off, you know? I don't know. It just doesn't sit right with me.
Whitney Ann: Yeah. And so one might ask, ‘Well, if it's that difficult, if it's giving you so many problems or causing that much grief in your life, why would you pursue that anyway?’ And I think that Humanistic Psychology introduces some concepts that allow an understanding of why someone would pursue something, even though it's difficult. And so there's a word called the daimon, and it's from Greek literature, and it refers to this inner urging within yourself that drives you forward to living out your character and your destiny in your life.
And Carl Jung also used this word as a synonym for a part of the unconscious, concerned with life purpose. And he thought that it spoke through intuition and dreams.
And Rollo May also likened it to the urgings of one's inner nature, akin to an aspect of a life force, and he said, the daimonic is the urge in every being to affirm itself, assert itself, perpetuate and increase itself. And the reverse side of the same affirmation is what empowers our creativity. And depending on the way an individual related to the power of the daimonic, he postulated that it could be a force that propels one to the fulfillment of his or her potential, or driving them in excess toward their ruin.
And I think that concept is really fascinating.
Amanda: Yeah, so I think that's what attracted me to studying Humanistic Psychology in the first place was, the calling, the inner...this daimon that I didn't have a word for before. Because I've just dealt with so much anxiety in my life. And you know, it was starting to really become a limitation for me. And it wasn't until I started being like, there's gotta be a different meaning for this. There's gotta be... like I didn't come here to be like… ‘Oh, you have anxiety, so you know, you're just gonna have to deal with that.’ And it's like… No, it's for a purpose. I just had to start looking at it differently, and being like… maybe I'm not having all this anxiety because it's meant to destroy me and I have to overcome it, I have to fix it. Maybe it's there for a reason. It's telling me that there is something that needs to change in my life. And so that's what I looked into studying. I didn't have words for it before, but now I describe it as the relationship between creativity and anxiety. And looking at that as well, I really see it for artists, if we can look at it this way, is that creativity and anxiety are two sides of the same spectrum. And so it's not so much as the whole ‘pain for fuel’ thing. I think this is a whole different paradigm. It's more of...if something in our being is re-pressed, that's what's causing anxiety, panic, depression, and the like. But if it’s ex-pressed, it’s creativity.
Whitney Ann: Yeah, and if you have this daimon inside of you, this spark that is a driving force, and then you’re required to participate in a society and try to rearrange yourself and your authenticity to try to fit in within the structures that are built for you, rather than being able to freely express yourself, then that is when a lot of these things rise, as far as depression or anxiety, and I have experiences similar to that too. I was working a full time job, and I was performing full time, and I was trying to sort of straddle both of these worlds. And I ended up going into the hospital for a week, and they couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. And what I realized is I was not living to my true purpose. I was trying to fit within the constraints that society had like set up for me, and I wasn't living authentically.
Amanda: Yeah, and that's something I would be really curious to know from other people as well, about working any type of non-creative job. Because I really had a lot of shame in that for a long time thinking, oh, I just I can't... I can't hold a job, and more in the way of that I would end up leaving the job because I'm just like, I can't. I couldn't handle it. Like, I would have so much anxiety. And now I believe, like what you said... I think it's something within us, it’s this daimon, being like... ‘No, that's not, that's not you. There's a better way.’
Whitney Ann: Yeah, and also, Rollo May has a quote, and I would like to share it, because I think he says it way more that I can paraphrase it. So it says,
“Whereas moral courage is the rightings of wrongs, creative courage in contrast is the discovering of new forms, new symbols, new patterns on which a new society can be built.”
And the moral courage and the right and wrong is so dualistic and such a statement about what we are experiencing in the society as we speak, and it's not really helping us in any way to propel forward or come up with solutions to our problems. So it's so important for creatives and performing artists, and any kind of artists, even if you're creative in your everyday life, to be able to fully express that without having to constrain it and repress it, because it's imperative to our society moving forward and being innovative.
Amanda: Right, right. Yeah. I think he also says something about, that creativity or creating is the necessary sequel to being. Which is really...It's something I just have to sit with. Are you really living if you're not creating? That doesn't even mean you have to have a creative career. But it does mean you have to have creative control over your life.
Whitney Ann: Or a creative intention, or just an awareness that every moment of your life you're actively creating something.
Amanda: Yeah, and creating from your authentic self. And I think that's something that I am really excited to talk more about as we get more into these episodes as well, is just the idea and the role of an artist. Because the whole idea is that, as an artist, you're meant to be forging your own path. But that goes against how we're wired. We're wired to know what's the next step. That's how our body knows that we're safe. So an artist is going against all those things which again brings me right back to this gap in the research on the mental health and physical health of someone that's consistently required to do that in their work.
Whitney Ann: Yea, over and over again. And the idea of safety in itself, and what that really means, and how we can feel safe in order to be able to be as creative as possible in fulfilling our potential.
Amanda: Yeah, yes, exactly. And I love that you said that too. Because I kind of typically tell people I don't really feel like I belong in any one place, you know? In the corporate or academic world, there's kind of this thing that at least I’ve personally felt. The art... it's just not quite taken... It's like it's a hobby, or you need a backup plan or a ‘real’ job kind of thing... ‘that only happens to like the lucky few’, you know, and like, ‘good luck’, ‘it’s really difficult.’ But then, it’s really interesting, because then coming here, I’m kind of feeling the same way in a different way about being in the artist community, where I don't feel like I'm taken seriously as an artist if I tell people I'm studying something else, or have a different job. And so I've never viewed that as a backup plan. And now I have, after talking a lot with you, I've really come to this whole idea that that's a boundary in and of itself. That it’s not a backup plan. It's that I'm creating this container for my life in which I can flow freely. And I can be my most authentic and creative self.
Whitney Ann: Yeah, you're giving yourself other options to be able to fulfill all of your desires, rather than feeling that you need to sacrifice any part of yourself in order to fit within what has been built for you already.
Amanda: Right. Absolutely. And I mean again, that just takes us back to the whole idea that Humanistic Psychology was founded upon, which is being fully human. And I've always had a hard time describing myself, because I feel like we, especially in Western culture, really identify off of...What do we do for a living? And I mean as an artist, how do you even answer? I don't, I mean… like my soul, my career and my job in my soul is an artist. But does that mean I'm only an artist of value if I'm making money off of it?
Whitney Ann: Also, there's a survey, the Gallup poll, and it polls like... what is the percentage of people who are satisfied in the workplace? And it's only 33% of people who are satisfied in the workplace. And so when you take that number and you apply it to what we're talking about...that's kind of sad. If people are saying that the career is like the first thing that they're going after, and it's not fulfilling them in any way.
Amanda: Yeah, and I've always thought about work. It takes up so much of your life... like I can't just have a job... I need to be doing the work here that I came here to do, that I'm passionate about, that fulfills my heart's desires... that I can be of best service to the world and to myself, you know? Just think of a 9 to 5 job, I mean you're there at least 40 hours of the week. You need to be enjoying what you're doing.
Whitney Ann: Yeah, and there's not anything wrong with people who might enjoy a structured lifestyle like that, either. Just as there's nothing wrong with artists who choose to pursue the path of auditioning for commercials and projects that are funded by big corporations. There is nothing wrong with that. It's just if it's authentic to yourself.
Amanda: Yeah, exactly, and some people really enjoy doing those things. Just like, I think that people don’t understand us going to school, and that sounds terrible to them because they don't want to be in school, and like I get that. But that for us is authentic. There is a part of us that's unfulfilled unless we are learning in that environment, too.
Whitney Ann: With also the understanding of, yes, we can learn on our own, and perhaps school isn't the most necessary thing that we need in order to fulfill our next steps… but embracing the potential good that could come out of attending these things.
Amanda: Yeah, and we have to get into that mindset too, especially as artists. If it makes us happy, it doesn't have to make sense to other people. You just have to follow... and it's not going to make logical sense. It's really not.
Whitney Ann: Yeah, especially also when you add in social media and having to show up in a certain way in order to feel like you're seen, and trying to be authentic at the same time. There's so many things that I'm really excited to dig in deeper with and explore and bring on guests and other artists who go through these challenges within mental health, and also, other psychologists who are studying similar things to us. I'm really excited to dive in and talk about these things on a much deeper level.
Amanda: I am, too. I'm so excited. Let's do it. In no time!
Well, I always think that we've talked for less time than we have. Hopefully we've given a really solid overview of why we're here, and what we want to talk about, and what you can look forward to.
Whitney Ann: Right. So thank you so much for tuning in, and until next time.
Amanda: Until next time.
