Entertaining the Light - Episode 2: Defining Creativity and the Flow State
Whitney Ann Jenkins: We made it back. So, something's going right.
Amanda Beck: Something’s going right. Absolutely. So, what are we talking about today? Creativity and flow in the performing arts?
Whitney Ann: Yes. Creativity is such an interesting word. Because I feel like recently, it's kind of like a buzzword, especially when it comes to corporations or startup companies. Or you know, people trying to hire the most creative people. Even within the people who are studying creativity in our program at Saybrook, I feel like a lot of attention is paid to organizational creativity, within psychology, anyway. So, the definition of creativity in psychological terms is something original and useful. And I think that's really, really not good explanation for creativity. I’m sorry psychology books, but that's very subjective, because what is really original and what is really useful?
Amanda: Well, and I think that gets into the whole idea of creativity in general, and how expansive it is, because obviously people were drawn to our program for different reasons. And many, as you have said, are using it more as… ‘how can we use creativity in the workplace?’ Or ‘how can we use expressive arts and healing?’ And whilst all of these things I think, can merge together, you and I really came together because we were trying to come at it from an entirely different standpoint. Because everybody is creative. But we were looking at it more as in, what does it mean to have a very specific, an artistic career?’ Maybe creative is not the right word, because I think creative can apply in many different forms.
Whitney Ann: Right. We have creativity in our everyday life. So, every decision that you make, from… what are you going to eat and create? What are you driving, or what are you choosing to wear? Everyday creativity is something that we all experience. But to look at creativity, and what that is from an artistic standpoint, is not something that psychology has really mastered.
Amanda: Really looked into much at all, I don't think.
Whitney Ann: They've coined terms such as “little-c” and “Big-C” creativity.
Amanda: Yeah, I think there's like, “mini-c,”, “little-c”, “Big-C” …
Whitney Ann: I’ve heard about “tiny-c” also.
Amanda: What is tiny and creativity!?
Whitney Ann: So, looking at creativity from a psychological textbook is very judgmental. Because why is someone's creativity a “Big-C” or a “tiny-c” or I don't know, like all of the C’s that they've got going on… it’s enough to make me C-sick! Haha. So creativity, when it comes to us as humans: We are all created. We are all creators. We all are creative by nature.
Amanda: Well, and that's an interesting thing, right? Because, in and of itself, creativity did not used to be a term that was used to describe humans. Creativity used to be only used to describe the gods, and a divine power. So, that's something that I think is important to have an understanding of ourselves as creative beings, as co-creators. And what does that mean? I just always think about when people say, ‘Oh, I'm not creative.’ It's like, well, you're thinking about, maybe you're not “artsy-crafty.” I don't even feel like I’m… sometimes I feel like I’m like that, but not a lot. And it's like, well, you have creativity in you with, like you said, every decision you make.
Whitney Ann: So the definition of creativity. What is it in the Webster's Dictionary? We should look it up.
Amanda: Yeah, let's look it up. This is from Oxford Languages. It says:
“the use of the imagination or original ideas, especially in the production of an artistic work.”
Whitney Ann: So the Oxford Dictionary refers to artistic craft when it's speaking of creativity. It also speaks of imagination.
Amanda: Yeah, that's interesting. APA (so this is a psychological definition of creativity from American Psychological Association) says:
“Creativity is the ability to produce or develop original work, theories, techniques, or thoughts. A creative individual typically displays originality, imagination and expressiveness. Creative thinking refers to the mental processes leading to a new invention or solution to a problem.”
Some similarities.
Whitney Ann: Yeah, that's interesting. However, how do you prove that someone has a thought that is unique, if not everyone shares all of the thoughts that they have?
Amanda: My mind goes straight to collective unconscious, and nothing is 100% original. But that's also kind of the point of being an artist, isn't it? It's the universality in the specificity, somebody said this to me recently. We're sharing our own unique experiences and thoughts and what-not in our art. But those ideas… I don't think anything is a 100% original. We've gotten them from somewhere.
Whitney Ann: Right? So it's like, where are these thoughts and ideas coming from to fuel the creativity?
Amanda: Yeah. Well, and I think that's the interesting thing. And you know, when we speak about flow, that's a super interesting concept to me, and my mind just goes straight to it being very divine in that sense. But I think it's so interesting to break it down because creativity wasn't used to describe a trait within humans early on. But now we do use that to describe a trait within us, so does it still come from a divine place?
Whitney Ann: Well, when you think to the idea of a muse, and where that originated from (from Greek mythology, I believe), it was the Muses that, I think there were like 7 of them, and they were kind of like fairies and they all had a specific purpose. But that is where the concept of a muse came from, as far as the inspired feeling to cause an action to create.
Amanda: Ooh, so it inspired a feeling that causes an action to create.
Whitney Ann: Or an idea. Whatever was that fuel, whether it be a feeling or a thought or an idea to create the inspired action, which is to me, creativity.
Amanda: Yeah. Some of these definitions I just want to challenge. Because what does that even mean? I don't think anything is 100% original. But inspired… Actually that just gave me chills…inspired is a whole different… I like that definition of creativity better. Something that I am so inspired by that it draws me… And I’m just sitting at my computer, and I’m typing away, or I'm acting and it's just coming through me. I don't necessarily know where it's coming from, or why it excites me…
Whitney Ann: Right, almost like a vessel or a channel that you are to whatever is coming through. And the word inspire is an interesting word too, to think about the origins of that one.
Amanda: Yeah, it is. I mean, the definition of inspiration... If you think of the words in-spirit… kind of catching on to a pattern here! Oxford Dictionary says… Oh. Oh, this is interesting. Okay. So, the first one is:
“the process of being mentally stimulated to do or feel something, especially to do something creative”
Two:
“the drawing in of breath or inhalation.””
I don't think I've heard that before.
Whitney Ann: Wow! That's layered! Because the drawing in of breath, like an in inspiration… to breathe is to be is to be inspiredis to be creative.
Amanda: Yeah, it's the breath of life. It's like the life force. A throughline in my studies, is very much, like… if we're not expressing creatively, what are we doing? And again, that doesn't have to mean in an artistic way. But for us it does mean that because that's the ways that we are inspired. It feels like to me, if I keep it repressed…there's something from, I want to say, is it The Four Agreements, that was like, I think he said that we're most afraid to be ourselves and to be seen. We're not most afraid of death. We're most afraid of life. And I feel that. I feel like, ‘Oh, I'm actually really afraid to be seen like really deeply, for who I am.’ But that has to do with expressing creatively, because on the flip side of it, yes, that's difficult for me. But I suffer under when I repress things, and I experience that anxiety because of it.
Whitney Ann: Yeah. So, creativity to me is to be able to authentically express outwardly, so our entire being can be represented in one stroke of a paintbrush.
Amanda: Ooh Ah. Yeah. That's really good.
Whitney Ann: And I think to be able to do that, you must be present fully, to, as Rollo May says, give birth to a new reality.
Amanda: Oh, I love Rollo May.
Whitney Ann: And also to be able to achieve, what we also want to discuss today, is the flow state. And how, being immersed in the presence of not having anything else on your mind, but being in that moment, and not having a care in the world besides the activity that you're in for the sake of doing that activity at that moment without any other worries or anxieties or thoughts.
Amanda: Yeah. And that's the thing, right? I think especially, again, this doesn't just apply to artists. But just for what we're talking about, you know, I think probably any artist can tell you that that's like the goal, right, is to get into that flow state. Like when you are able to do a performance, and you come off, and people are telling you that was great and what you did, and you're just like… I don't remember. I blacked out, like, you know? Because it's just so… it's coming so from that inspired place. I mean it's like when you're dreaming, I think it's Robert Bosnak who's talking about that, like it's pure imagination. Right? So, I don't know. It feels to me like another form of like, just pure inspiration just flowing through you.
Whitney Ann: Yeah. So, speaking of being in a flow, specifically when you're performing, or like immersed in an artistic craft, there are certain things that need to be achieved in order to be able to get to a flow state. And our friend Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, the great great mister who came up with the flow state theory, and has this really difficult name to pronounce… he is the one who really presented this idea of being immersed completely in an activity and being autotelic.
Amanda: Yes, so tell, because you know more about that than I do, the autotelic.
Whitney Ann: So, the autotelic is the just being completely immersed in the moment for no other reason than to be immersed in the moment. Like being a kid and playing outside and losing track of time, and suddenly it becomes dark because you were so in the presence of being in play and just being.
Amanda: Yeah. Absolutely. It's something that just feels really good, because you're not in your head. And how do we get there? That's the great question, right? And this is something that we've talked about. He shares this chart where you see that getting to the flow state, you have to have a high enough skill level and a high enough level of challenge. And where those two intersect is where you can get to the flow state, where you can access it. On his chart, it's at the intersection of arousal and control. So, what does that mean? I'm still even discovering what that means.
Whitney Ann: Right. So, in order to be able to get to a flow state in the performing arts… let's look at that specifically. We'll take acting, for example. or like as a musician, like a classical musician. There is a certain skill level that you have to achieve as far as technique or memorization, knowing how to navigate certain things that pop up to correct them without thinking about them. Because the only way that you can get to a flow state is to know these techniques and skills so deeply that you don't have to think about them, and they're not something that's on your mind.
Amanda: Yeah, I think that's why a lot of actors talk about just knowing the material really well, as to just having it really memorized to the point where it’s just there, you don't have to think about what you're going to say next, and you can just ride along with it.
Whitney Ann: Memorization, for an actor, is not even part of the skillset that's like the bare minimum level of a skillset as an actor. If you don't have your lines memorized, there's nowhere that you can go from.
Amanda: Right.
Whitney Ann: And so when you're in a play and someone comes up to you, and the first thing they say is… ‘how did you memorize all those lines?’ you look at them a little cross-eyed and be like, ‘Well, that's my job. Like that's the first, if that's the only thing that you're thinking about after watching my performance, I haven't done my job right. I wasn't in the flow state.
Amanda: Yeah, that's a really good point. But, like you said, that's just the foundation for the skill. What is that? What else does it mean in terms of skill, and how to get to flow state as an actor? Because so many people have different approaches to acting, and some people operate where it's just this natural thing, or they haven't trained, or you know. So, what does that even mean as far as skill, because that's not even universally agreed upon.
Whitney Ann: I think it comes down to being confident in what they do. Because there is also like the elements of talent, and what talent is within creativity. And some people have a raw talent and ability when it comes to perfecting. or mastering a skill or a technique. So, it still takes concentration, but it just might come easier to one person or another. But you're still having to take the same steps to get to the flow state. Even a musician, you have to know the scales and the way that chords work and how harmonies and dissonance…they are the basic things that you have to know before you're able to master a musical instrument.
Amanda: Yeah.
Whitney Ann: But it's interesting. Because when you go to a concert, afterwards, no one really says, ‘how did you memorize all those lyrics and chords?’
Amanda: Oooh. That's a good point. Yeah, that's so true. That's really interesting. And I was also thinking, like again, skill for acting, you know. Acting is, what are we doing? We're being humans, and we're trying to be a vessel, for you know, that lived human experience to come through us. And in a way that the other people can watch it and experience it. And it's like, it's not real, but it's all real. It's all based on real lived human experience, and something that's universal. So, in that essence, when we're talking about skill, I think one of my acting coaches kind of made me think of this before, too. When you grow as a person, it's simultaneous, it's connected to your acting, and I would argue that that's for no matter what you're doing. But I think especially in a place where you're having to portray that human experience, I feel that way. I feel like my acting makes me a more confident person, and I feel like, the more I grow as a person, the better my acting becomes.
Whitney Ann: Yeah, acting is something that you can step away from and not be involved in for a really long time, and live your life and gain experiences, and come back a better and richer actor, because you have more life experience, and you have more accessibility to the range of emotional intelligence.
Amanda: Yeah, it's so funny that you say that, too, because I was just talking to somebody about this. They were feeling bad because they hadn't been in acting classes for a while and what not. Or maybe they took some time off and took some different classes. And I've even thought that myself, taking time off, and I’m like, oh, am I not training? But I feel like, don't underestimate the idea that if you're growing in any area of your life, like you are, you are training in acting, which I know people will disagree with that. But I’ve found that very valuable.
Whitney Ann: I think that could be applied to any of the arts, because it's all storytelling, and it's all coming from and deriving from that same place of human experience and being able to express that. You still need to keep up on your knowledge of the technique within the skill level, because that is the foundation, right? If you have that technique ingrained, you know yourself to the point where you don't have to think about it. And you can walk away for years and come back to it, and it's just like in you, and something that you remember how to do. Like riding a bike, you might not ride a bike for 10 years, but you can get on and still remember how to do it. It's something that just becomes an automatic thing that you’re able to do and not have to think about all of the mechanisms of how to do the thing or the skill or the craft that you are focusing on. And because you're able to be automatic, then you can be autotelic… completely immersed in the moment and the presence of the moment.
Amanda: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I just I think that speaks to, again, that it's personal. It's individual, and there is no one way to do it. And again, I think it just goes back to, again, following what's authentic for you. Some people might have more of a natural ability. They might have more of a natural, you know, gift. I keep thinking of singing. Some people definitely come out having a natural gift, and then there's other people who didn't have that natural gift, and they worked at it, and they can sing beautifully. So, I think you just need to know yourself to know where to go with that.
Whitney Ann: Yeah. And also, I think, sometimes training can hurt someone's natural ability. I believe the raw talent, or what was there, is now like… people get in their head, and now they're thinking about it too much. I think training is really important, I think having discipline within your craft, and being able to have a good technique and a foundation for what you're doing is really important. But there comes a point in your training where subjectivity comes into the mix. And so other people's opinions are affecting your techniques and the outcome of what you're producing.
Amanda: Yeah, and that's something you have to be careful with, because I think it's a balance of being open enough to be able to grow and to learn and to take meaning from what other people are saying. But you have to have that balance with enough of being like, ‘Okay, that doesn't speak to me. It doesn't resonate with me.’ You just have to be able to know what works for you and what doesn't. And I think that's where training can be great if you go into it with the mindset of, ‘I'm going to be here to see what works for me and what doesn't.’ Everybody has their own technique, and they want you to follow it to the T, and that's fine to learn it. But I think you just have to know going into it, ‘I'm seeing what works for me.’ That's the way I'm approaching it now. It took me a while to get to that point, to where I’m like, ‘I have to do it perfectly to be a good actor.’ And now I’m like, no, I'm taking what works for me and leaving what doesn't.
Whitney Ann: Yeah. I've been taking acting classes since I was really young, and I remember being in an acting class once. And I was preparing for an audition or something like that, and I had three different people coaching me at the same time. And they were all telling me something different. They were all giving me a different opinion about what they thought that I should do in order to be able to come across the most effective, or I don't know, and that was when I was like, ‘Okay, this is all opinion. This is all subjective. The only thing that you can do is to be authentic.’
Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing. If you don't know who you are, it makes it a lot harder to be at work, and be the artist. Because then you're at the risk of being molded by what other people think, you're at the risk of conforming, and that goes against what being an artist is. I think this is the thing about being an artist. I think being an artist is about cultivating authenticity, and being the most authentic that you can in the moment, and what you have to express. And the hard pill to swallow is not everyone's going to like it. I mean that’s true of anything. Not everybody is going to like it. You can't please everyone. But being an artist, that's where really the vulnerability is because you are putting yourself out there. You're putting your heart, your soul, and something that means something to you, and you have to be able and willing to do that authentically, knowing that there's going to be criticism, and people are not going to like it and be okay with that. And I think many artists probably still struggle with that. I definitely do.
Whitney Ann: Right, and so to take all of those things that you just said, and the things that we've been discussing about authenticity, and then thinking about… how can you forget all of those things so that you can get to the flow state?
Amanda: Right. So I've been studying the Chubbuck Technique for a couple of years now, and there's 12 steps. It's very structured. There's a lot of great tools that have helped me foundationally, and Step 12 is ‘Let it go.’ And I've always struggled with that. And it's a process. I think when you study something like that, it takes you time to get to that point, but I would always be so obsessive about, ‘I have to get my choices.’ You know, the different tools. ‘I've got to have all those done.’ And then I didn't know how to detach, because the last step, letting it go, is what gets you into the flow state. It's like passionate detachment, right? You have to make all these choices, and you do them. You make aligned choices, and you're intentional. But then you have to just go and forget about all of it, which is a skill in and of itself.
Whitney Ann: Right. And so, in order to get to a flow state, you have to have a foundation of your craft, and you have to be confident about it and know what you're doing. But on the other side of that, you gotta feel safe enough to surrender to the environment that you’re in, or the people that you're acting with or around, and feel safe enough to be able to let go of all of those things in order to be able to achieve that presence. And I went to college for acting. And I went through a really hard time. That was a really difficult time of my life. And so, when I was asked to make myself vulnerable and open up, it was really challenging for me to get there, because I didn't feel safe. And it wasn't until I started working professionally and meeting people who I did feel safe around who held a space that allowed me to be able to open up and become vulnerable, that I really understood what it meant to be in that flow state, and what that was like. And it was almost like a meditative state. I was completely present in the moment of what I was doing, because I had the training and I had the skills down to the point where I wasn't thinking about it, and I was just in the moment, and I felt safe enough to do so.
Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. We're baring our souls. We're going to places that I mean, we talked about how we address that, just about trauma. That’s a whole other thing to get into. But I mean it's really, really, intense, deep, vulnerable things. So I mean, I think if you're able to have a safe space to where you feel like you don't have to be aware of your surroundings because that space is holding you. I think it's really important to be able to explore.
Whitney Ann: Yeah, but it’s also really challenging, because you’re in an industry where you’re so worried about what everyone is thinking about you, because you want them to like you, because you want them to book you for a job. And you want to be accepted as your authentic self, but in order to be able to do that, you have to kind of play the game.
Amanda: Because it doesn't feel safe so often. And when our survival is like ‘Oh, that's what's gonna make the paycheck.’ I think that's where it can get really into that starving artist thing, because you're like, ‘Oh, I have to. I do all these things and exploit myself and not be okay. That's what I’m here to do. And that's what's going to make the paycheck. That's where I think that really troubling, starving artist kind of mindset can slip in.
Whitney Ann: Right, and then it brings up being really intentional about the projects that you're choosing to work on and the environments that you're choosing to put yourself in.
Amanda: Absolutely.
Whitney Ann: And it's interesting, because we talked about the chart that showed the different levels of skill and challenge within the flow state, and achieving it. And on the chart is boredom. And so, when you have perfected your craft and you've done it repetitively over and over and over again, you can also get to the point where you're on stage and you're doing the dance that you've done 300 times in a row. And because you've done it 300 times in a row, you're able to do it to perfection and without even thinking about it. But also, at the same time, thinking about what you're gonna have for dinner next Thursday. And you know, what the person in aisle three, with the blue hat on, is going to watch after they leave on Netflix. You’re able to juggle all of these thoughts at the same time and still be performing and remembering your blocking, and your lines, and the lyrics, and the dance, all at the same time.
Amanda: Ooh. Ooh. Yeah. It just hit me because I was thinking, when you're talking about doing all these things automatically and just the flow state, right? This is what happens to me in the shower. I'll have to be like, ‘Did I wash my hair?’ It just becomes so automatic. Or like when you're driving, you know, and you’re like, ‘How did I get here?’ And the thing is, those are the two places for me where I get all the ideas where I’m like, ‘I can't write them down!’ And they just come because it's like you've opened this channel to be in that flow state, because you're not thinking about what you're doing? I don't know.
Whitney Ann: Yeah, but it's also tricky, because at what point does doing an activity, or a craft, or a skill, over and over and over again in a place that used to be inspiring…When does it set into boredom, so that you start thinking about other things in that moment, and you're not fully present?
Amanda: Right. That's the tricky thing, isn't it is? We don't always know which category we're in on the chart. It's tricky sometimes to get to that point. I don't know. I think people have tried to create techniques and whatnot that do that, you know, get you there enough to have the skill, but to let it go enough… But there's no one way for everyone.
Whitney Ann: Right. And so that to me goes back to the intersection that we were talking about earlier of arousal and control, and what causes someone to continue to do something, a performance or a skill, if it's no longer of that arousing feeling or nature.
Amanda: Right, and I know we will talk about this more in depth later on, but it just really makes me think about the intersection between creativity and sexuality, and the whole second chakra thing and everything. Because even when you think about it, you have to be, you know, aroused enough, but also relaxed enough at the same time, to get into that place as well.
Whitney Ann: Right. Yeah. And so that's what I'm focused on in my research is the intersection of creativity and sexuality, specifically within performers. Because there’s so much there that hasn't even been touched upon. And I think it can be really informational. It can really inform us about creativity in our everyday life, by taking something that's specific and then looking at it from a big picture of us as creators in life itself.
Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. So, lots of ways to look at that and try and get to the flow state. I’ll definitely be exploring that more myself. But I do think when you heal in your life then you're a better artist, and vice versa. When you work on yourself in any place. That's a holistic view of that. Then you're gonna be better in any place. And again, I just want to go touch on too, the whole thing of, how do you get to the flow state? Because this is something I've not had experience with… We're doing shadow work and stuff that, you know, it's got its own challenges. But as far as people who use other things to get to the flow state like substances or psychedelics.
Whitney Ann: Yeah, that's something that I would really love to maybe even have a whole episode on, is the effect of things like psychedelics on creativity specifically, and how that can affect performances and creativity in itself. Because there's not one way of doing it. There's lots of ways to get to lots of places within creativity. And to go full circle back around to where we started, all of the greatest scientists and poets, and even political figures; they all credit creativity as something that is essential in any kind of understanding of life, or propelling it forward, or having anything of value. Which goes back to our first episode. If all of these notable people think creativity is one of the ultimate achievements in life, then why is that not valued more in our society?
Amanda: Yeah, it's not understood. It's definitely like, doing this work has made me think about that differently, and the value, and me having to say that, ‘No, this is important.’ And actually, the places, the things that have most inspired me have been art. I understand it in a different way. So we have to be like, ‘Oh, actually, I did learn a lot from watching this show’, or ‘something hit differently in me when I saw that performance, or that piece of art, or that poem.’ These are all things that, yeah, they’re taking for granted.
Whitney Ann: I think that one of the things that I wanted to talk about with creativity is that creativity requires an awareness and a higher level of consciousness. And so some people try to compare creativity to things that are destructive. People will use creativity for destruction, or it can be used as destructive. And I think, this is my opinion, that because creativity requires this higher consciousness awareness, that what they're calling creativity when it comes to destruction isn't creativity at all. But it's more manipulation.
Amanda: Well, I was thinking when we were studying some of that, the whole idea of destructive creativity is contradicting itself, because creativity is about bringing something into being, and destructiveness is about taking something and destroying. I don't know. I do think that there is an element of creativity that, although there are definitions for malevolent creativity, I can see where that can be defined because you're like, okay, well, this is being creative, and how I can be manipulative, and you know... I don't want to go into the dark things it talks about, but it does contradict itself. What we're talking about is not that. There's a certain level of goodness.
Whitney Ann: Goodness. I think that yeah, that's something interesting to talk about too, is like the core of creativity, just like I feel like everything within us, is neutral.
Amanda: Yeah.
Whitney Ann: But I don't think the opposite of creation is destruction.
Amanda: It's just nothingness.
Whitney Ann: Yeah.
Amanda: Yeah, cause that makes me think of A Course in Miracles. This is a tricky thing, but it talks about how only love is real, and fear doesn't really exist. And you're like, ‘That makes no freaking sense. Look at all the bad things happening in the world’ and everything. And it's not really saying that those things aren't happening on this level of being, but it's kind of like, ‘Well, if you've miscreated you, haven't created at all’. So, I mean, that's in a whole entirely other spiritual kind of context, but I think it does go along with what we're talking about. You know, you're not really creating if it's not from that divine, loving, pure… I don't know?
Whitney Ann: Right. It goes back to… ‘Where are those thoughts and ideas coming from?’ The source of those…
Amanda: Yeah, the source matters.
Whitney Ann: …inspired actions, the source of those ideas and thoughts or images.
Amanda: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, just again, to bring that around to, as far as like, how to access your creativity and whatnot. And I just think again, in terms of what we're speaking of the whole ‘starving artist’ thing, it's not just starving in the way, because you don't have money. It's also in that kind of concept of the mentally ill and the mad genius and the creative… And I think the thing is, we, I think, a lot of us, especially as actors, think… well, I mean any artist really, is like… ‘Oh, the pain!’ I mean, it's been romanticized for forever, since it existed. And so we think that… I mean, I've certainly thought that… in my work, I’ll hold on to things. I’ll be like, ‘Well if I heal this in my real life, am I going to have anything left to create with?’ But now, the longer I've been in it, I'm like… you might can get something really real out of using… you know, if you have something pent up, and what not. But I think it's more powerful…when I’m healing in my own life, I think I'm a better artist. I think, when I fully accept myself… I'm still working on that, but you know, then I’m like… ‘Oh, I’m in a place where I can fully access these emotions needed for a character, because I'm breaking through the shame of even having them in the first place.’ So they're just there, and I can access and not be holding onto them.
Whitney Ann: Yeah, when you're not stuck in the pain and the depressive states, you can use the whole spectrum of the human emotional experience rather than just being stuck in that lower vibration.
Amanda: Yeah. Absolutely.
Whitney Ann: Yeah. There is something in the Encyclopedia of Creativity that I remember coming across, and it was talking about the globalization of creativity when it comes to mood disorders like bipolar, and how we have to be careful, because the people who have that condition might have incredible capabilities of reaching creative spaces, but not to glamorize that, because on the other end of it there's so much pain that goes along with that.
Amanda: Yeah. Yeah, and that's something, again, in doing this, I want to be able to break down and break through what's correlation versus causation when it comes to creativity and mental illness. Because I think there's a lot of correlation between creative people and empaths and being… I think, sometimes, when you have the challenges, you are also having gifts. Or, it's kind of like, ‘Oh, is it a gift or a curse?’ thing. But I don't think it has to stay like that. I think it can challenge us in ways to overcome our own darknesses. It can challenge us in ways to view our darknesses differently… to not feel like we have to hold on to the struggle and the pain and the sacrifice in order to be a good artist.
Whitney Ann: Right, and to identify the moments of the best… I don't know if best is the right word…but, the most creative that we've been with those dark places. So, we're not chasing the darkness as much as going through it and working through it and using it to get to the other side.
Amanda: Yeah. And also letting it exist without needing to be attached to it, having awareness around it. Because it's like doing shadow work. It's like your shadow, it's gonna be there. It's more how you respond to it. Are you trying to destroy your shadow? Because it's not gonna work. You have to love it.
Whitney Ann: Or even be aware that it's even there, and just acknowledge that it's there, which I didn't do for a really long time.
Amanda: Yeah, I think definitely acknowledging it is a big part of it. And yeah, there's so much to explore in that. But I think having awareness and acceptance are some of the first steps to being able to change anything.
Whitney Ann: Right, and to be able to take creativity within your everyday life, so that everyday activities enable you to have the presence to be able to achieve that flow state.
Amanda: Yeah. Absolutely.
Whitney Ann: Get back to that inner child.
Amanda: Yeah, always getting back to the inner child. That seems like the work.
Whitney Ann: I think that might be a good place to wrap up.
Amanda: I think so, too. We have lots more to dive into.
Whitney Ann: Hopefully people will find value in these conversations that we're having. I know that I would have loved to have something like this to listen to years ago. So, hopefully we're providing something of value to people who might be in need of it right now.
Amanda: Yeah. And I would love to know people's thoughts around some of this and what they might be interested in hearing more of, because there's so much that we can dive into, and this has definitely helped me a lot in my artistic life, studying this stuff. So, I would like to entertain the light.
Whitney Ann: Yeah. Let go.
Amanda: Let go. Absolutely. Yeah. So, that being said, I think that might be a wrap on this one, and we'll see you on the next one.
Whitney Ann: Until then.
Amanda: Until then.
